The Excerpt podcast: How to navigate politics around the dinner table this holiday

On a special episode of The Excerpt podcast: Heading into a contentious election season, with two major western wars ongoing and fierce partisan political and cultural divides, a gathering can quickly turn spirited and… well, challenging. How do you maintain your focus on the gift of being with your loved ones and find ways to enjoy the quality time, even if you have vastly different perspectives? USA TODAY Political Correspondent Phillip M. Bailey has some ideas to keep front of mind to stay calm and navigate these moments with kindness.

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Hit play on the player above to hear the podcast and follow along with the transcript below. This transcript was automatically generated, and then edited for clarity in its current form. There may be some differences between the audio and the text.

Dana Taylor:

Hello and welcome to The Excerpt. I'm Dana Taylor. Today is Wednesday, November 22nd, 2023 and this is a special episode of The Excerpt. Gathering with family and friends for the holidays can be a joyful time, creating memories that you'll cherish for years to come. But heading into a contentious election season with two major western wars going on and fierce, partisan political and cultural divides, these gatherings can also turn spirited and, well, challenging. How do you maintain your focus on the spirit of togetherness and find ways to enjoy spending time with your family and friends, despite having vastly different perspectives? With so much heavy news that may come up at the dinner table, should you come prepared to offer lighter fare, perhaps stories of hope and resilience to counter them? Here to dive into this with me is USA Today national political correspondent, Phillip M. Bailey. Phillip, thanks for joining me.

Phillip M. Bailey:

Hey there, how are you?

Dana Taylor:

I'm good. So, it's often suggested, we all know this, to avoid controversial topics like religion, politics, when we are getting together with people for the holidays, but those topics inevitably do come up. So, what advice do you have for maintaining a peaceful atmosphere? Does it really mean just not taking the bait?

Phillip M. Bailey:

I think the best advice I would give folks is particularly those who come from politically mixed families, that might have either divided or untested views on a particular subject, particularly what's going on in Israel and Gaza, is to come with the best information as possible. The biggest change I think in our country is that we are not all getting our information from the same place. We're not all gathering around watching Walter Cronkite deliver the evening news. We're getting it from trusted media, mainstream outlets, a lot of us are getting it from social media. So, I would say before diving into any conversation with friends or family, check your sources first. USA Today is always a good place to start.

Dana Taylor:

Should the overall goal be to maintain the peace or is it actually a really good time to engage in honest conversation about the things that truly matter to you with the people that truly matter to you?

Phillip M. Bailey:

Well, look, democracy starts at home. And we've seen, over the past three years, basic challenges to our democracy. And a value in democracy isn't just a loser's consent, the idea that when you lose an election, you accept it and you move on. Persuasiveness is a part of it. You obviously might feel you are completely right in your convictions, but how are you able to persuade others to see your point of view? It not necessarily to change how someone votes or change how someone thinks, at least get them to a place where they understand your viewpoint. And I think persuasiveness is a key going into the holidays.

Dana Taylor:

Well, in situations where you're caught in the middle between relatives who can't let a debate go, what do you think are some effective ways to limit or contain that discussion to prevent it from escalating and causing conflict?

Phillip M. Bailey:

Well, alcohol is a good place to maybe keep on the low tap. Maybe monitor your drink intake a little bit there. That liquid courage makes people talk in a little greasier way than they otherwise would. I would recommend though that having certainly an exit ramp. There are other things to discuss and talk about. But also the age-old saying, "Let's agree to disagree." We are not going to necessarily change someone's thinking or entire ideological underpinnings, whether it's informed or uninformed opinions in one dinner conversation, even when there are loved ones. So, as much as you might have a conviction or a belief about something, realize other people do too. And it might be a good time to appreciate the fact that what makes our country truly great is our diversity, not just racially, ethnically, religiously, but also ideologically.

Dana Taylor:

I was going to ask, staying busy, keeping things moving, even if it means moving from room to room, could be a way to skirt some touchy topics. But if you can't physically remove yourself, what are some meaningful things that you can do to help defuse the tensions? There are a million different things to talk about.

Phillip M. Bailey:

Well, not only are there a billion different things to talk about, but I'm convinced, Dana, that we have far more in common. If these are your friends and family and you want to spend Thanksgiving with them, I'm going to assume you like these people for some reason. So, I think we need to talk more sometimes about our commonalities. Where do we agree? Where do we see eye to eye and where can we work from there? And if we can't, then what are the basic values that we all hold? I think democracy, I think humanity. I think there are some basic principles that we all have and share that we should all be drawn to. I don't think we should avoid conversations or conflict, but I do think that we need to learn, particularly the post-pandemic era, particularly post-January 6th. I think we clearly need to understand that if we have a democracy and we want to hold onto it, it's worth saving. Then we need to learn how to find common ground even when we disagree.

Dana Taylor:

Thanksgiving is, of course, a time for giving thanks at a minimum, and practicing gratitude, and patience, and grace and using those as tools to help foster in a more positive holiday atmosphere and a more positive conversation. What are your thoughts on that?

Phillip M. Bailey:

The things that I think about now that I'm thankful for... I'll be 40 in two months. I think more and more about the way things used to be, the way things are, what they might be. Those basic values that my parents taught me that matter the most to me now, more so than any grand prize or journalism prize or award, or any achievement professionally. Those personal bonds and connections, they matter most. Because whatever your faith belief might be, we have a finite amount of time on this place, on this rock, and we better use it wisely. I would hope that folks can divorce themselves from ideology more so than anything else. I understand why it's so important to you to look at things from a liberal perspective or conservative perspective, but remember, these are other people we're dealing with and these are your loved ones. And you have a very finite time with them, because once it's over, it's over. To me, yesterday was 2003, now it's 2023. And I guarantee you I'm going to blink and it's going to be 2043. So, enjoy these moments while you have them, because everything ends.

Dana Taylor:

What do you think are some telltale signs that people shouldn't ignore, that might indicate that they're the person in the family that the rest of the family finds difficult to be around during the holidays?

Phillip M. Bailey:

I won't repeat the phrase, but there's a common phrase that said that if everybody in the room is the blank, well, then maybe you're the blank. Introspection is hard. It's much easier to project it onto others. It's much more difficult to look at the mirror and say, "What did I do wrong?" And more and more, Dana, what I do in all my interactions, family, platonic, romantic, again, I have the right to my feelings, but I do have a moment where I ask myself, "What could I have done better? Did I say this the right way or the wrong way?"

Dana Taylor:

All right. So, if you can't submit to the stress, you just can't. Do you have any advice for people in creating new traditions, celebrating in a different way that doesn't involve an hours long gathering that helps you maintain your connectedness? Or do you think that, no, you just have to suck it up, and you just have to go and spend the time with the people who want to see you?

Phillip M. Bailey:

I am noticing, Dana, more alternative Thanksgiving celebrations outside of the traditional, the family gets together at grandma's house or grandpa's house and they have the big turkey dinner. I noticed some families go on trips, some do more recreational exercises. Every family, I think has a right to make a new tradition as they see fit. These traditions that we have at some point were not the original tradition. They were themselves new traditions. So, for me, I'm more of a libertarian when it comes to this. I think that people should live and let live, and they can decide for themselves. You know your limit. And you know that, I really don't want to talk about that, let's talk about something else, I'm not really into... And this is hard for me, because I always get asked about politics no matter where I go, no matter what setting it is.

So, I come in knowing that I'm going to have to talk about politics. If I don't want to, I generally avoid those spaces and places altogether. But I don't think it's fair to tell someone, oh, you got to avoid your family at all times or during these very important occasions. I think you have to establish boundaries. I think you have to say to people, "Oh, we can talk about it for a little bit." Say, "Well, we'll see." And you have to also have verbal cues of exit, like, "Well, that's interesting. It is what it is." You have to have those verbal cues for exit ramps as well.

Dana Taylor:

Well, some of the touchier subjects that are going to come up may not relate to things like politics at all. Do you have any recommendations for addressing other family tensions openly rather than letting them fester over the holiday season? Or if something comes up on Thanksgiving Day, you're at dinner, maybe it's something that you want to talk to someone about later?

Phillip M. Bailey:

Yeah. Those family wounds, or traumas, or incidents or experiences are always a landmind, because sometimes the people who are closest to us, who we love the most, hurt us the most. And they've done things that haven't been addressed ever. As you probably know, I'm a big fan of therapy. I think it is important just like exercising, just like going to the doctor, going to the dentist regularly. There's nothing wrong with the basic maintenance of life, someone helping you untie those emotional knots. And I'm a firm believer that you do need that outside help, because guess what? If you or these people were going to resolve this, think you would've done it by now, if left to your own faculties. So, outside of politics, I think we all know, particularly friends of mine and relatives of mine who are much older, I'm talking about in their eighties and nineties, where you know there's limited time. And you have to make your own assessment of do I want to burden this person with this, do I think I'm actually going to get a resolution?

Because you might be ready for a resolution and this other person might not. And I've learned this, that you have to be okay with that. And the most important thing you can do is forgive yourself. Forgive yourself of feeling this way. Don't put yourself through a giant guilt trip. If you're ready to have the conversation and this other person in your family is not, whether it's political or it's personal, you don't have a court order, you can't make them. And the worst thing in the world is trying to pull a tooth out of someone who doesn't want it pulled.

Dana Taylor:

So, if you're hosting the get together this year, should you feel obligated to play referee? Maybe say, my house, my rules, we're not talking about politics this year, we're not talking about Aunt Helen, who we all know that we don't like, or is it enough that you cook the turkey?

Phillip M. Bailey:

Rules are meant to be broken, again. Unless you have a military enforcement agency over your house, good luck with that. But when I was coming up, the matriarch or the patriarch of the family drew so much respect that you just abided by their last say. They were the supreme court of the family as a whole. So, if grandmama, or meemaw, or big mama didn't want to talk about it anymore, you took the cue there. But families are different. And I think at this point in our country's history and our own personal history, I think we should all be thankful and grateful for who we still have left. I was doing a podcast with a mentor of mine on a friend's podcast, and I asked him about loss. And he said, "Loss does add up after a time period."

And I think that we should all realize how petty and small some of these conversations... They obviously feel big and important now, because you're in them. But there are so many conversations I think about, what could I have said to my grandmother, or grandfather, or my mother or father who are no longer with me, who've died since? And I've forgiven myself for that. I had the time that I had with them, and I think that's what we should think about more so than conflict resolution or even making rules to avoid conflict.

Dana Taylor:

Well, I've lost both of my parents too, and that really resonates with me. Be grateful for the time that you have with the people that you love. So, finally, you can only pick one, Phillip, pumpkin pie, sweet potato pie, or apple pie. What's on your dessert list this year?

Phillip M. Bailey:

Apple. Apple.

Dana Taylor:

Really? Okay.

Phillip M. Bailey:

Listen, you can take my black card if you want, but I've never gotten the hype about sweet potato pie. It's not sweet. It's barely a pie to me. I don't understand the hype. At least with the apple pie, I put the ice cream on the joint or I can warm it up. Apple pie is good cold or hot. It could be in the refrigerator all night, you pull it straight out or you can warm it up in the microwave, put some scoops of ice cream. But pumpkin pie, sweet potato pie, pumpkin, there's nothing good with pumpkin in it. Not coffee, not pie, nothing. Nothing. The only thing a pumpkin is good for is Halloween decorations.

Dana Taylor:

I think you're on your own island here.

Phillip M. Bailey:

Yes.

Dana Taylor:

Happy Thanksgiving, Phillip.

Phillip M. Bailey:

Happy Thanksgiving to you.

Dana Taylor:

Thanks to our senior producer, Shannon Rae Green for production assistant. Our executive producer is Laura Beatty. Let us know what you think of this episode by sending a note to [email protected]. Thanks for listening. I'm Dana Taylor. Taylor Wilson will be back tomorrow morning with another episode of The Excerpt.